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Table of Contents
Testimony of Philip Goldman, Former Employee, Central
Intelligence Agency
Mr. GOLDMAN. I am Philip Goldman.
Senator INOUYE. And you are a former employee of the Central Intelligence
Agency?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Over 10 years ago.
Senator INOUYE. And you were employed at the time when MKULTRA was in
operation?
Mr. GOLDMAN. There were some MKULTRA's in operation at the time I was
there.
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Senator INOUYE. And Mr. John Gittinger, are you a former employee of the
Central Intelligence Agency?
Testimony of John Gittinger, Former Employee,
Central Intelligence Agency
Mr. GITTINGER. I am.
Senator INOUYE. Are you still an employee?
Mr. GITTINGER. No.
Senator INOUYE. Were you a member of the Agency at the time MKULTRA was
in operation?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes.
Senator INOUYE. Thank you. Senator Kennedy.
Senator KENNEDY. I want to welcome both of you to the
committee. If we could start with Mr. Goldman. Were you the project engineer for the safe
houses in either San Francisco or New York?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I know of no safe house in San Francisco.
Senator KENNEDY. How about in New York?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I knew of one facility that was established there, but I
didn't know anything of its operation.
Senator KENNEDY. Were you a monitor on any testing of drugs on unwitting
persons in San Francisco?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, we have a classified document here that was
provided by the Agency that lists your name as a monitor of the program and I would
appreciate it if you would look--
Mr. GOLDMAN. I think the misunderstanding arises because I was project
officer.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, would you take a look at that?
[Mr. Goldman inspected the document.]
Mr. GOLDMAN. This document as it states is correct. However, my--
Senator KENNEDY. That document is correct?
Mr. GOLDMAN. As far as I see on the first page, the project. But my--
Senator KENNEDY. Well, could I get it back, please.
That would indicate that you were a monitor of the program.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I was in charge of disbursing the moneys to Morgan Hall.
Senator KENNEDY. To whom was that?
Mr. GOLDMAN. To the individual whose name was listed at the top of that
document.
Senator KENNEDY. And you knew that he was running the project in San
Francisco?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I knew he was the person who was in charge out there.
Senator KENNEDY. All right.
Mr. GOLDMAN. But I had no knowledge nor did I seek knowledge of actually
what he was doing, because there would be other things involved.
I did receive--
Senator KENNEDY. What were you doing?
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Mr. GOLDMAN. I was collecting -- I had to be sure that all the receipts
that ever were turned in balanced with the moneys that were paid out to see that
everything was run all right. There was no illegal use of funds as far as we could
determine by the receipts and cash.
Senator KENNEDY. So even though the Agency document indicates that you
were a monitor for the program, one of the few monitors of that particular program which
you mentioned for San Francisco and Mill Valley, Calif., you described your responsibility
only as a carrier of money, is that correct?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I would say as a disburser or carrying out -- seeing that
the moneys were handled properly. There was within that -- I don't know what's done or
what he did do in conjunction with other people.
Senator KENNEDY. Were you responsible for the disbursement of all the
funds?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I was responsible for turning over the check to him.
Senator KENNEDY. And what did you know of the program itself?
Mr. GOLDMAN. The only thing I knew of the program was what he furnished
us in terms of receipts and that sort of thing. I didn't indulge or concern myself in
that.
Senator KENNEDY. You still wrote, and I'll let you examine it -- it's a
classified document -- but you wrote a rather substantive review of the program in May of
1963, talking about the experiments, the factual data that had been collected, covert and
realistic field trials, about the necessity of those particular -- and talked about the
effectiveness of the various programs, the efficiency of various delivery systems. That
doesn't sound to me like someone who is only--
Mr. GOLDMAN. Well, if you would refresh my memory, if I could read this I
would certainly agree with whatever is said there, if it was written.
Senator KENNEDY. I am trying to gather what your role was. You've
indicated first of all that you didn't know about -- you knew about a safe house in New
York; now we find out that you're the carrier for the resources as well and the agent in
San Francisco. We find out now that the CIA put you as a monitor. You're testifying that
you only were the courier, and here we have just one document, and there are many others
that talk about the substance of that program with your name on it and I am just trying to
find out exactly what role you were playing.
Mr. GOLDMAN. The only thing I can tell you about this and I am drawing
completely on my memory is that this individual who was in charge out there conducted
these things and reported them back to the Agency. I didn't participate in any of them.
All I know was that he furnished me with receipts for things that were done and told of
the work that they had done.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, that document covers more than receipts.
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes, it tells of what -- they had conducted work out there.
Senator KENNEDY. It describes, does it not? Read the paragraph 2.
Mr. GOLDMAN. "A number of covert"--
Senator KENNEDY. Well, you can't read it, it's a classified document, and
I don't know why, quite frankly, but it relates to the substance
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of those programs and your name is signed to the memorandums on it. I am not interested in
you trying to review for us now what is in the document, but I think it would be
unfortunate if we were left with the opinion that all you were was a courier of resources
when we see a document with your name on it, signed, that talks about the substance of the
program. And what we're interested in is the substance of the program. We have the recent
documents that were provided by the Agency, which do indicate that you were at least
involved in the substance, and I'm just trying to find out whether you're willing to tell
us about that.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I am perfectly willing to tell you everything that I can
remember.
Senator KENNEDY. But you can't remember anything.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I can't remember the substantive parts of these, things, I
really can't.
Senator KENNEDY. Of the program that was taking place.
Do you have any greater familiarity with what was happening in New York?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, no.
Senator KENNEDY. And you have the same function with regards to New York?
Mr. GOLDMAN. The same function with regard to New York.
Senator KENNEDY. Did you ever go to San Francisco?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. Did you meet with the agent in charge?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. And why did you meet with him?
Mr. GOLDMAN. To discuss some of the receipts and things that were there
to find out if these were indeed true expenditures and to find out if everything was going
along all right for the work that was being done.
Senator KENNEDY. What work was being done?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, the reports of these things and whatever was being done.
I don't know who he reported to but he did report to somebody.
Senator KENNEDY. You travel out there to find out about the work that's
being done, and what does he tell you, that the work is being done well and--
Mr. GOLDMAN. He told me that the work that they were doing was going
along, progressing satisfactorily, but to be very frank with you--
Senator KENNEDY. But he didn't tell you what the work was?
Mr. GOLDMAN. To be very frank with you, Senator, I cannot remember the
things that happened back in those days. I've been away from the company -- from the
Agency for over 10 years, and that is even farther back than that, and that was just about
the time when I first engaged in this, so it was my first--
Senator KENNEDY. Did they disburse a series of $100 checks, to your
recollection?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I don't recollect it, but if you have it there, then they
did.
Senator KENNEDY. Did you know Dr. Gottlieb?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
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Senator KENNEDY. How did you know Dr. Gottlieb?
Mr. GOLDMAN. He had been head of the division when I was recruited.
Senator KENNEDY. Did you talk to him about these programs? Did you have
anything to do with him during this period of time?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I didn't have anything to do with him until I would say
probably in the sixties.
Senator KENNEDY. And can you tell us what you had to do with him then?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Just what you see there, on the papers.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, that is the request for the money and he approves
it.
Mr. GOLDMAN. That is the request for money and he approves it, and I am
quite sure that I probably discussed with him whether the work was going along all right,
whether his reports were being turned in, and whether he was satisfied with the way things
were going and did he have any complaints about the way other people were requesting him,
but I did not engage myself in anything he was doing.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, did you get the impression that Gottlieb knew what
was going on?
Mr. GOLDMAN. I didn't ask.
Senator KENNEDY. But you told him that your impression that what was
going on even though you didn't know what was going on, was going on well, I guess?
[Laughter.]
Mr. GOLDMAN. I told Gottlieb what you saw in there was that the things
appeared to be going along all right. I was repeating and parroting back the words that
were given to me while I was there.
Senator KENNEDY. What was the money being spent for, do you know?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No; I can't recall that, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Would you remember if we told you it was red curtains
and can-can pictures--
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Floral pictures and the rest.
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Recorders.
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Recorders and two-way mirrors.
Mr. GOLDMAN. Wait, hold on. You're slipping a word in there now.
Senator KENNEDY. But you would have authorized those funds, would you
not, since you were the--
Mr. GOLDMAN. Did you say two-way mirrors?
Senator KENNEDY. Yes.
Mr. GOLDMAN. Where?
Senator KENNEDY. In the safe houses.
Mr. GOLDMAN. Where?
Senator KENNEDY. San Francisco.
Mr. GOLDMAN. No.
Senator KENNEDY. How about New York?
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. You remember now that you approved expenditures for New
York?
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Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. What were those expenditures for?
Mr. GOLDMAN. That was a transfer of money over for the use in an
apartment in New York by the Bureau of Narcotics. It was for their use.
Senator KENNEDY. Do you have any knowledge of what was going on in the
apartment?
Mr. GOLDMAN. No, sir, other than I know that it had been used, according
to the information that I have been given, it was used by the Bureau of Narcotics to make
meetings with individuals who they were interested in with regard to pushing dope -- not
pushing dope, but selling narcotics and that sort of thing.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, I am sure you had many responsibilities and it's a
long time ago, but the Agency does indicate that you were project monitor for that
particular program.
Mr. GOLDMAN. That's correct.
Senator KENNEDY. Your own testimony indicates you went out to review the
expenditures of funds to find out whether they were being wisely used, that you came back
and talked to the project director, Mr. Gottlieb, to give him a progress report about what
was going on out there.
Mr. GOLDMAN. Yes, sir, I did.
Senator KENNEDY. All those things are true, and yet you draw a complete
blank in terms of what was the project itself. That's where the record is now.
Mr. GOLDMAN. I did not go out there to review the projects nor did I come
back and talk with Mr. Gottlieb and review what I had observed in terms of any projects
that they -- that is, other parts of the Agency might have in operation there. I simply
reported back those things which were told to me by the individual out there who -- and I
carried them back and they -- are contained in the report that you have in front of you,
word for word, just as it was given to me.
Senator KENNEDY. The report that you examined here is a substantive
report on the particular program and project. And I don't think anyone who wasn't familiar
with the project -- this is a personal evaluation -- could write a report on the substance
of it without knowing about it. Now, that's mine. Maybe you can't remember and recollect,
and that's--
Mr. GOLDMAN. No; everything I put down in there is things that I was told
while I was out there, and if there was any ancillary information involved in there I can
tell you I just don't remember that. I really don't.
At the time -- that was some years ago. At the time -- a lot of time has passed since then
and I have made quite sure that if I could recollect it at all, I would do it. If you have
some papers and you want me to certify whether yes, this is so or that is so, I can do
that, but I can't recall it mentally.
Senator KENNEDY. You just certified the principal. There are others up
here.
I would like to go to Dr. Gittinger.
Mr. GITTINGER. It's Mr. Gittinger.
Senator KENNEDY. How long did you serve with the Agency?
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Mr. GITTINGER. Twenty-six years.
Senator KENNEDY. Excuse me?
Mr. GITTINGER. Twenty-six years.
Senator KENNEDY. Twenty-six years.
And at some point you moved into the operational support side, is that correct?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. And did you know Sidney Gottlieb?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. And did he inform you about the research projects
involving LSD?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. It is my understanding that you were also aware of some
of the drug testing projects conducted on unwitting subjects on the west coast using the
Bureau of Narcotics people in the operation. Is that true?
Mr. GITTINGER. I was.
Senator INOUYE. Excuse me. Would you speak into the microphone? I cannot
hear you.
Mr. GITTINGER. Sorry.
Senator KENNEDY. Do you know which drugs were involved in those tests?
Mr. GITTINGER. LSD. And I can't remember for sure much of the others.
What is the substance of marihuana, cannabis, is that right, that can be delivered by
other than smoking?
Senator KENNEDY. Cannabis?
Mr. GITTINGER. There had been some discussion of that; yes.
Senator KENNEDY. And was heroin also used?
Mr. GITTINGER. Heroin used by CIA?
Senator KENNEDY. No. In the west coast operation.
Mr. GITTINGER. Absolutely not.
Senator KENNEDY. Now, to your knowledge, how were the drugs administered
to the unwitting subjects?
Mr. GITTINGER. I have no direct knowledge.
Senator KENNEDY. Why did you go to the safe houses?
Mr. GITTINGER. It's a very complicated story. Just in justification of
myself, this came up just, day before yesterday. I have not really had enough time to get
it all straightened in my mind, so I ramble.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, you take your time and tell us in your own words.
We've got some time here.
Mr. GITTINGER. My responsibilities which would involve any of the period
of time that you were talking about really was not directly related to drugs at all. I was
a psychologist charged with the responsibility of trying to develop as much information as
I could on various cultures, overseas cultures, anthropological type data, if you follow
what I mean. I was also engaged in trying to work out ways and means of assessing people
and understanding people.
I originally became involved in this through working on Chinese culture, and over a series
of time I was introduced to the problem of brainwashing, which is the thing that really
was the most compelling thing in relationship to this, and became charged with the
responsibility of trying to find out a little bit about interrogation techniques.
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And among other things, we decided or I decided that one of the best sources of
interrogation techniques would be trying to locate and interview and become involved with
experienced police interrogators in the country and experienced people who had real
practical knowledge of interrogation. The reason for this is that we had become pretty
well convinced after the experience of the brainwashing problems coming out of China, that
it was the techniques of the interrogators that were causing the individuals to make
confessions and so forth in relationship to this, rather than any kind of drugging and so
forth. So we were very much interested in interrogation techniques, and this led to me
being introduced to the agent in the west coast, and I began to talk to him in connection
with these interrogation techniques.
Senator KENNEDY. OK. Now, that is the agent that ran the tests on the
west coast on the unwitting people. That's where you come in, correct?
Mr. GITTINGER. If I understand -- would you say that again?
Senator KENNEDY. The name Morgan Hall has been -- that is the name that
has been used.
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes.
Senator KENNEDY. And that is the agent that you met with.
Mr. GITTINGER. That is right.
Senator KENNEDY. And you met at the safe house.
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Whom did you meet with in the safe house?
Mr. GITTINGER. This is the part that is hard for me to say, and I am
sorry that I have to. In connection with some work that we were doing, we needed to have
some information on sexual habits. Morgan Hall provided informants for me, to talk to in
connection with the sex habits that I was interested in trying to find information. During
one period of time the safe house, as far as I was concerned, was used for just these
particular type of interviews. And I didn't see the red curtains.
Senator KENNEDY. Those were prostitutes, were they?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. How many different times were you there that you had
similar--
Mr. GITTINGER. I couldn't possibly say with any certainty on that. Four
or five times.
Senator KENNEDY. Four or five times.
Mr. GITTINGER. Over -- you remember now, the period that I'm talking
about when I would have any involvement in this is from about 1956 to 1961. So it's about
a 4- or 5-year period which is the only time that I know anything about what you are
talking about here today.
Senator KENNEDY. Did Morgan Hall make the arrangements for the
prostitutes to meet with you?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Did the interviews that you had have anything to do with
drugs?
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, as I tried to explain earlier when this was being
discussed a little bit beforehand, again I think it is pretty hard for most people now to
recognize how little there was known about drugs at the period of time that we are talking
about, because the
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drug age or the drug culture comes later on. Consequently, those of us who had any
responsibility in this area were interested in trying to get as much information as we
could on the subculture, the subculture drug groups, and obviously the Bureau of Narcotics
represented a means of doing this. Consequently, other types of things that were involved
in discussions at that time would have to do with the underground use of drugs. When I am
talking about this I am talking about the folkways in terms of unwitting use of drugs. Did
these people that I was talking to have any information about this and on rare instances
they were able to tell me about their use, and in most cases this would largely turn out
to be a Mickey Finn or something of that sort rather than anything esoteric.
I also was very much interested because we had relatively little information, believe it
or not, at that time, in terms of the various reactions that people were having to drugs.
Therefore, these people were very informative in terms of they knew a great deal of
information about reactions.
Senator KENNEDY. At least you gathered -- or am I correct in assuming
that you gathered the impression that the prostitutes that you had talked to were able to
slip the drugs to people as I understand it. Did you form any impression on that?
Mr. GITTINGER. I certainly did not form the impression that, they did
this as a rule or--
Senator KENNEDY. But they bad the knowledge.
Mr. GITTINGER. They had the knowledge or some of them had had knowledge
of this being done. But again, as it turned out, it was largely in this area of knockout
drops.
Senator KENNEDY. Looking back now did you form any impression about how
the Agency was actually testing the broad spectrum of social classes in these safe houses?
With the large disbursal of cash in small quantities, $100 bills and the kinds of
elaborate decorations and two-way mirrors in the bedrooms and all the rest, is there any
question in your own mind what was going on in the safe houses, or the techniques that
were being used to administer these drugs?
Mr. GITTINGER. I find it very difficult to answer that question, sir. I
had absolutely no direct knowledge there was a large number of this. I had no knowledge
that anyone other than -- than Morgan Hall was in any way involved in the unwitting
administration of drugs.
Senator KENNEDY. But Gottlieb would know, would he not?
Mr. GITTINGER. I believe so, yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Could we go into the Human Ecology Foundation and talk
about that and how it was used as an instrument in terms of the support of research?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Could you describe it to us? Could you describe the
Human Ecology Foundation, how it functioned and how it worked?
Mr. GITTINGER. May I tell something about how it evolved, which I think
is important?
Senator KENNEDY. Sure.
Mr. GITTINGER. The Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology,
so-called, was actually a -- I am confused here now as to whether I should name you names.
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Senator KENNEDY. Well, we're not interested in names or institutions, so
we prefer that you do not. That has to be worked out in arrangements between Admiral
Turner and the individuals and the institutions.
But we're interested in what the Foundation really was and how it functioned and what its
purpose was.
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, it was established to undertake research in the
general area of the behavioral sciences. It definitely had almost no focus or interest in,
say, drug-related type of activities except in a very minor way, because it was largely
set up to attempt to gain a certain amount of information and to fund projects which were
psychological, sociological, anthropological in character. It was established in the sense
of a period of time that a lot of us who are in it wish we could do it over again, but we
were interested in trying to get together a panel of the most representative high-level
behavioral scientists we could to oversee and help in terms of developing the Society for
the Investigation of Human Ecology type of program.
The Agency in effect provided the money. They did not direct the projects. Now, the fact
of the matter is, there are a lot of innocent people who received the Society for the
Investigation of Human Ecology money which I know for a fact they were never asked to do
anything for the CIA but they did get through this indirectly. They had no knowledge that
they were getting CIA money.
Senator KENNEDY. Over what period of time did this take place?
Mr. GITTINGER. As far as I was concerned , it was the period of time
ending in 1961. 1 believe the Human Ecology fund finally phased out in 1965, but I was not
involved in this phasing out.
Senator KENNEDY. Can you give the range of the different sort of
individual projects of the universities in which it was active?
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, it would have as many as -- I am very fuzzy on my
memory on the number of projects. It is over 10, 20, 30.
Senator KENNEDY. After it made the grants, what was the relationship of
the Agency with the results of the studies? The Foundation acquired the money to make the
grants from the Agency, and then it made the grants to these various research programs.
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. And that included eight universities as well as
individual researchers?
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. Then what follow-up was there to that, sir?
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, in every sense of the word, the organization was run
exactly like any other foundation, and it carried with it the same thing in terms of
making certain that the people that they had given money to used it for the purpose for
which it had been granted, that they had access to any of the reports that they had put
out, but there were no strings attached to anybody. There wasn't any reason they couldn't
publish anything that they put out.
Senator KENNEDY. What, sort of budget are we talking about here?
Mr. GITTINGER. I honestly do not remember. I would guess we are talking
in the realm of about $150,000 a year, but don't hold me to that, because I don't know.
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Senator KENNEDY. What is your view about such funding as a professional
person, in terms of compromising the integrity of a university, sir?
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, obviously, sir, insofar as today there is no
question about it. I will have to say at the time that we were doing this there was quite
an entirely different kind of an attitude, and I do know for a fact that we moved to start
towards phasing out the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology and the Human
Ecology Fund for the very reason that we were beginning to recognize that it was moving
into an area but this would be compromised.
Senator KENNEDY. Well, that is commendable, both your attitude and the
reasons for it, but during that period of time it still was involved in behavior research
programs, as I understand it.
Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir. On its own, in connection with this, it
participated again, and these again were not CIA-directed projects, but these were all
things which would theoretically contribute to the general knowledge at the time where the
things like the study of the Hungarian refugees -- obviously, the study of the Hungarian
refugees who came to this country after the Hungarian revolt was a very useful exercise to
try to get information about the personality characteristics of the Communists and so
forth.
Senator KENNEDY. Were there other foundations that were doing similar
kinds of work?
Mr. GITTINGER. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Senator KENNEDY. You believe--
Mr. GITTINGER. You mean, CIA, other CIA?
Senator KENNEDY. Right.
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, my answer is in the sense that I know of no other
CIA foundations, no. There were, of course, other foundations doing similar kinds of work
in the United States.
Senator KENNEDY. Have you heard of the Psychological Assessments
Foundation?
Mr. GITTINGER. I certainly have.
Senator KENNEDY. What was that? What function did that have?
Mr. GITTINGER. Now, this was bringing us up to a different era. I believe
the functions of that organization have nothing whatsoever to do with the things that are
being talked about here while I was associated with it.
Senator KENNEDY. Rather than getting into the work, it was another
foundation, was it not? It was another foundation supported by the Agency?
Mr. GITTINGER. What, the Psychological Assessment?
Senator KENNEDY. Yes.
Mr. GITTINGER. No, sir, it was not.
Senator KENNEDY. It did not get any support at all from the Agency?
Mr. GITTINGER. Oh, yes, sir. It did get support, but it was a business
firm.
Senator KENNEDY. It was a business but it got support from the Agency?
Mr. GITTINGER. It got money from it, but it definitely was not in MKULTRA
or in any way associated with this.
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Senator KENNEDY. All right. I want to thank you for your helpful
testimony, Mr. Gittinger. It is not easy to go back into the past. I think you have been
very fair in your characterizations, and I think it is quite appropriately indicated that
there are different standards now from what they were 25 years ago, and I think you have
responded very fairly and completely to the inquiries, and I think with a good deal of
feeling about it.
You are a person who is obviously attempting to serve the country's interest, so I want to
thank you very much for your statement and for your helpful timeliness.
Mr. GITTINGER. Thank you, sir.
Senator INOUYE. Senator Case?
Senator CASE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am sorry that I had another
committee that I had to complete the hearing with this morning before I got here.
I shall read the testimony with very great interest, and I appreciate your testimony as I
have heard it. I would like to comment just on one point, and that is, it relates to a
story in the press yesterday about part of this program involving the funding of a grant
at a foreign university. I would like to elicit from you a comment as to the additional
sensitivity and difficulty that that practice involves from your standpoint as a
scientist, as well as a citizen, if you will.
Mr. GITTINGER. I will say it was after the fact thinking. It was utter
stupidity the way things worked out to have used some of this money outside the United
States when it was CIA money. I can categorically state to my knowledge, and I don't claim
a complete knowledge all the way across of the human ecology functions, but to my
knowledge, and this is unfortunate, those people did not know that they were getting money
from CIA, and they were not asked to contribute anything to CIA as such.
Senator CASE. It would be interesting to try to examine this by turning
the thing around and thinking what we would think if this happened from a foreign official
agency to our own university. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator INOUYE. Senator Schweiker.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Dr. Goldman, I wonder if you would tell us what your training and educational background
is?
Dr. GOLDMAN. I have already given a biography for the record.
Senator SCHWEIKER. I have not seen it. Who has it? Is it classified? We
may have it for the record, but may I ask you to briefly describe your training and
background for us now? I hope it is no secret.
Dr. GOLDMAN. Well, I was told if I was asked this to say that. I was told
that by your staff people, but I have no objection to telling you. I am a resident from
Pennsylvania, southwest Pennsylvania, Lancaster County. I went to Penn State, and I am in
nutrition.
Senator SCHWEIKER. In what?
Dr. GOLDMAN. Nutrition.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Were you in charge of a section or segment of the CIA
in your past capacity?
Dr. GOLDMAN. During the time I was with that organization, I was in
charge of one small section of it, one small segment of it; yes.
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Senator SCHWEIKER. What was the function or purpose of that section that
you headed?
Dr. GOLDMAN. To provide support for the other parts of the division.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Where in the chain of command would that put you in
relation to Dr. Gottlieb?
Dr. GOLDMAN. Pretty far down the line.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Mr. Gittinger, I would just like to ask you a few
questions. We appreciate your frankness and candor with the committee, and we realize this
is a very difficult area to go into. I am not quite clear on two matters that were raised
earlier. First, were the safe houses we were talking about here used on occasion by the
prostitutes you referred to?
Mr. GITTINGER. I really have not the slightest idea.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Were the prostitutes used in any way to slip the
customers drugs for observation purposes?
Mr. GITTINGER. Not to my direct knowledge.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Would you have been in a position to know the answer
to either of these questions?
Mr. GITTINGER. May I say, probably not, and may I make an aside to
explain a little bit of this, please, sir?
Senator SCHWEIKER. Mr. Gittinger, a moment ago you mentioned brainwashing
techniques, as one area that you had, I guess, done some work in. How would you
characterize the state of the art of brainwashing today? Who has the most expertise in
this field, and who is or is not doing it in terms of other governments?
During the Korean war there was a lot of serious discussion about brainwashing techniques
being used by the North Koreans, and I am interested in finding out what the state of the
art is today, as you see it.
Mr. GITTINGER. Well, of course, there, has been a great deal of work on
this, and there is still a great deal of controversy. I can tell you that as far as I
knew, by 1961, 1962, it was at least proven to my satisfaction that brainwashing, so
called, is some kind of an esoteric device where drugs or mind- altering kinds of
conditions and so forth were used, did not exist even though "The Manchurian
Candidate" as a Movie really set us back a long time, because it made something
impossible look plausible. Do you follow what I mean? But by 1962 and 1963, the general
idea that we were able to come up with is that brainwashing was largely a process of
isolating a human being, keeping him out of contact, putting him under long stress in
relationship to interviewing and interrogation, and that they could produce any change
that way without having to resort to any kind of esoteric means.
Senator SCHWEIKER. Are there ways that we can ascertain this from a
distance when we see a captive prisoner either go on television, in a photograph, or at a
press conference? In other words, are there certain signs that you have learned to
recognize from your technical background, to tell when brainwashing has occurred? Or is
that very difficult to do?
Mr. GITTINGER. It is difficult to do. I think it is possible now in terms
of looking at a picture of somebody who has been in enemy hands for a long period of time.
We can get some pretty good ideas of what kind of circumstances he has been under, if that
is what you mean.
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Senator SCHWEIKER. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
Senator INOUYE. Thank you very much.
Before adjourning the hearings, I would like to have the record show that Dr. Goldman and
Mr. Gittinger have voluntarily cooperated with the committee in staff interviews, that
they appear this morning voluntarily, and they are not under subpoena.
Gentlemen, I realize that this experience may have been an unhappy one and possibly a
painful one. Therefore, we thank you very much for participating this morning. We also
realize that the circumstances of that time differed very much from this day, and possibly
the national attitude, the national political attitude condoned this type of activity. So,
we have not asked you to come here as persons who have committed crimes, but rather in
hope that you can assist us in studying this problem so that it will not occur once again.
In that spirit we thank you for your participation, and we look forward to working with
you further in this case.
Thank you very much.
Senator KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, I would like also to thank the witnesses.
These are difficult matters, and I think all of us are very grateful.
Senator SCHWEIKER. I think the witnesses should know that though it may
not always seem that way, what we are trying to do is to probe the past and look at the
policies of the past to affect the future. I think our emphasis really is on the future,
not the past, but it is important that we learn from the past as we formulate policies and
legislation for the future, I hope that all of the witnesses who did come before us
voluntarily this morning, including Admiral Turner respect the fact that we are
questioning the past to learn about the future. I think it should be looked at in that
light.
Senator KENNEDY. I think that is the spirit in which we have had these
hearings. It seems to me that from both these witnesses and others, Gottlieb knows the
information and can best respond, and we are going to make every effort in the Senate
Health Committee to get Mr. Gottlieb to appear, and we obviously look forward to
cooperating with Senator Inouye and the other members of the committee in getting the
final chapter written on this, but we want to thank you very much for your appearance
here.
Senator INOUYE. The hearing will stand in recess, subject to the call of
the Chair.
[Whereupon, at 12:12 p.m., the hearing was recessed, subject to the call of the Chair.]
Appendix A: Testing and
Use of Chemical and Biological Agents by the Intelligence Community
Appendix B: Documents
Referring to Discovery of Additional MKULTRA Material
Appendix C: Documents
Referring to Subprojects
Table of Contents
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